"Mums" the word

"Mumsnet," that is.

You have to read this thread. Revel in the creamy, rich hilarity. I'm not going to give all kinds of background - that's why I linked the thread, read it yourself - but I will have fun with some of my favorite bits.

"Because I had all that 'time off', so now she wants time off too (again, her words). Now, I totally support her decision to take a sabbatical and think it can be a positive thing. I just think that being jealous of my maternity is a really weird trigger???"

Yes, you had that time off, and it was time off to do something you wanted to do. Or did someone put a gun to your head and force you to have a child? Your sabbatical was to have a baby. Your colleague's sabbatical is to do something else. Your sabbatical, time off, whatever you want to call it, is no more justifiable or hers any less so just because yours involves a child and hers doesn't.

I'd say if she's envious (not "jealous," you dolt) of anything, it's the time off, not the maternity part. Who could blame her? How many of us aren't envious of someone who gets paid time off work for any reason that doesn't involve grief, illness, or injury?

"Their maternity policy isn't too bad, I was paid 100% salary for the first 6 weeks, 70% for 12 more weeks, then SMP for the rest. I was off for 6 months."

Fucking BOGGLE. Goddamn right I'd take sabbatical if I could be away from work 6 months with that kind of pay. That would almost - ALMOST - be worth having a baby for.

Wait, what the hell am I saying? I'd have to live with that baby for 6 months. No thanks. I'd rather be working. Back to the thread:

"She's a weirdo. Ask her if she'd like to babysit sometime and find out how hard it is looking after children."

I have a feeling she's figured it out and THAT'S WHY SHE DOESN'T HAVE CHILDREN. Or am I being too logical here? Just call me "weirdo." Some of us do indeed figure out that children are more effort than they're worth, and we don't have to have children to realize this.

"That's just weird. I wonder if your colleague will spend her six months off a)in chronic discomfort b)unable to sit down for a week or so c)with leaky boobs d) covered in sick and poo and e) with no sleep."

No, she'll probably spend the six months off enjoying her time away from work because she's smart enough not to put herself through the misery pregnancy entails. Seriously, do these people think pregnancy and parenthood means you feel great for several months and then produce a being that shits gold and pukes rainbows? YOU are putting yourselves through this WILLINGLY, parents. No sympathy here.

"No, she's spending it on a yacht sailing around the Whitsunday Islands off Australia... Seriously, that's what she's doing!"

Now I'm envious. Screw parenthood. Gimme the yacht trip! No wonder these people are so bitter. I'm bitter, just thinking about someone having 6 months on a yacht cruising around Australia, and it isn't me.

"Lot of people are very insistent that they are entitled to stuff that people who have children get."

Like equal treatment and equal time off to do what they want to do? Which is exactly what these people's maternity leaves are about - time off to do what THEY want to do. They're not doing anything for the company while they're taking that paid time away. The person on a yacht and the person with the new baby cost the company the same money and produce the same return.

"In fact I think there is some horrid website/club thing for them."

Muahahahahaha. It's an evil, secret club of people who don't think the world revolves around children and parenthood. Don't worry about us sacrificing your kids, though. We truly have no interest in them.

"Had stand up argument with colleague at work who is a right twat about this. He backed down when I pointed out that my children would be supporting him through his old age."

Well, he's not good at thinking on his feet then. He could have pointed out how he, and society in general, support children and parents while the kids are growing up. How does this woman know her kids will support anyone in their old age, anyway? They could die. They could kill her. They could somehow meet and kill the co-worker. However, I will give her props for making sure she's producing people who will grow up to serve others. Let's hear it for the slave caste!

"Basically this attitude is quite common and I think it stinks. Put a drawing pin on her chair and watch her squeal the word sabbatical when she sits on it!"

Bitter like the quinine, it is.

"Some people cannot see themselves other than by copmarison or competition to others."

Boy, is THAT clear.

"BTW, maternity leave is a legal right, sabbatical is not."

So what? Employee asks for sabbatical. Employee gets sabbatical. Employer apparently values employee enough to do this. Deal with it.

"i love colleagues who think i have been on holiday for 6 months - i bloody wish. Work is more relaxing"

Then why didn't you stay at work instead of having a child? Why take 6 months to do something so difficult? BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO AND YOU'RE GLAD YOU DID. YOUR choice. Your CHOICE. No mandate, corporate or otherwise.

I've never known someone to beg to come back to work early after maternity leave. I've never known someone to come back to work after maternity leave and say, "Damn, what a drag. I'm so glad I'm here. Why did I ever leave?"

"If I was her boss however I would not give her paid leave. Unpaid - perhaps - if I thought she deserved it, but paid is a joke."

That's in reference to the sabbatical, by the way. They still don't get that maternity leave is taking leave to do what you chose to do. It's society-sanctioned sabbatical. Oh, how I love the alliteration.

"The thing that I think is weird is that she was bumbling along quite happily without one until she saw me going off for my 6 month 'break' and got jealous and HAD to have the 'same thing' I'd just had. Except without the baby. I think that's very odd...?"

What's so odd about wanting equal benefits? The outcome of one leave is a baby. The outcome of the other leave is a cruise around Australia. Both are personal choices of the people who created their circumstances and took their leaves.

"Perhaps she should spend her sabbatical getting up 3 times a night and massaging vomit into all her clothes."

Well, that could happen if she parties enough during her lovely yacht cruise...

Would these people want someone wishing them ill during their maternity leave? I think not. They don't hesitate to dish it out in spades to someone who wants time off to pursue her life choice. Who's really bitter and envious here?

"oh well, having a baby is much better than sailing around Australia anyway."

BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA...Um. Yeah. OK then. I guess that's how a parent should feel...better that than to think, "Fuck the baby, I'd rather have the cruise."

"Yes, and she could also sit on very painful pin cushion and/or hedgehog to gain that special episiotomy feeling....however wouldn't want hedgehog to suffer, but as a textile teacher will gladly supply pincushion"

If it hurts that bad, if it's been that disruptive and made you so bitter, why have a baby? It was YOUR choice. Your CHOICE. Nobody forced it on you. Believe it or not, your having a child didn't benefit your employer or the world in any single way. It benefited YOU.

"What will she keep from her sabbatical? Memories and photos - oh, and maybe skin cancer. Whereas you will have your family renewing and creating memories for the rest of your lives."

Wow, the good wishes just keep on coming, don't they? Memories, photos, maybe skin cancer...whereas having a child is memories, photos, and ACCORDING TO THE PARENTS THEMSELVES, sleepless nights, painful episiotomies, achy leaky boobs, the agony of childbirth, sleepless nights, and then the real fun starts and you have to raise the damn thing.

I'll take two cruises please, and I'm smart enough to bring sunscreen.

"I would, however, feel very very tempted to talk on the phone in that same language to a "friend" of yours (even if you have to call the speaking clock) about how 'some people' at work apparently regard maternity leave as the same as a sabbatical and what a bizarre attitude that is..."

Why is it bizarre? Maternity leave IS A SABBATICAL. It is time off that YOU take to indulge YOUR choice. Your CHOICE.

"or this spite-filled blog?"

That would be yours truly. *bows*

"I do feel sorry for her if she thinks that my maternity leave was all about skiving off work for a bit, when actually it was just incidental to the life-changing soul-enhancing wonder of motherhood."

It was skiving off work for a bit, and life-changing, soul-enhancing wonders happen in many ways. I won't say parenthood isn't one of them. I don't know and I don't care. But it isn't the only one, and it is a choice these people make, not something visited upon them by some deity. It is no more special than a trip around the Australian islands, and I'd rather see the photos and hear the stories from the person who took the trip.

"I don't understand why the company is paying her while on sabatical. Surley she has holidays and can spend them as she pleases unlike like mothers who have to fit everything around thier children. Some people really have no understanding of parenthood."

YOUR choice. Your CHOICE. Oh, I understand it, all right. That's why I didn't, haven't, and won't choose it. Don't blame others because you made a choice you apparently aren't happy with. Stop thinking you're doing everyone a favor. In a world of 6 billion people, you and your children are just like me: Utterly unremarkable. Utterly replaceable.

"The blog in particular leaves a nasty taste. Why would anyone devote lots of time to putting such negative stuff up? Some real issues to work though there....."

I think that's in reference to yours truly again. I'm going to get such a swelled head from this. If I have so many issues, I really ought to be charging for magazine subscriptions.

"I have childless friends like this - one bemoans the fact that her teacher colleague has days off to look after her children when sick. So she compensates by taking days off sick when she is fine. What she fails to understand that her teacher friend most likely comes into work when she's sick to compensate and that when she's off she is looking after her sick children not just having a jolly. It drives me mad!!"

It drives me mad too, because mum is spreading her sick kids' germs all over the goddamn place and making other people sick. Oh, and people with kids DO use their kids as an excuse to take time off, even when the child and the parents are healthy. How do I know that? Because I have friends who are parents, and they tell me these things!

"What a bunch of sour faced Jeramiah's"

Well, that's kind of a cool phrase. I may have to steal that.

" and at how children are perceived by some sections of society. I hope these people die in poverty with no-one to come to their funeral. I fully appreciate people's decision not to have children, but to behave so spitefully towards those who do is inconceivable."

Um...what spite? Taking a sabbatical? Taking time away from work to pursue personal fulfillment and requesting to do so because parents are doing the SAME THING?

"Until they have given over a huge chunk of their lives caring for another human being other than their own selves, they have no right to judge or criticise."

Funny how they don't realize childless/childfree people might have done exactly that, for siblings, for parents, for other relatives, for spouses or significant others, for friends, for the elderly, for the homeless. But because they have no children of their own and don't accept that people with children deserve endless perks, suddenly they're selfish non-givers who have no idea what it's like to sacrifice or to care.

"As for 'sabbatical woman', words fail me, but I've seen it so many times before but, I have to say, usually from single male colleagues with no understanding whatsoever."

I'll agree with "words fail me...no understanding whatsoever," but for different reasons.

"But I don't mind that tbh, I think she's earned it and that sabbaticals can be a good way to regain focus. But I do mind the implication that I've had one. Because I haven't, I've had a baby."

Which you had WHILE ON SABBATICAL DOING WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO AWAY FROM WORK. YOUR choice. Your CHOICE.

"She'll be on full pay, I'm outraged even if you aren't that is blooming ridiculous. When I was childless I would have loved a six month sabbatical but in my wildest dreams I wouldn't have expected my employers to pay for it."

Guess you learned something today, didn't you? I sure did. Ask. They might say no. But they might say yes.

"God, this is annoying isn't it? A female colleague of mine who's in her fifties said recently "I never had children but I'd have LOVED the six months off you get for each one." Another male colleague and I explained that it's not six months off it's bloody hard work."

YOU MADE THE GODDAMN CHOICE TO DO SO. Did the company make you have a child? No? Then shut the fuck up. You had time off doing what you wanted to do, hard work or no hard work. Your "hard work" benefits the company no more than another employee's vacation.

"Why should she get six months paid holidays when you didn't get 6 months full pay on ML?"

Good question. I couldn't find anywhere in the thread where the original poster said the employee on sabbatical was receiving full pay. Someone please point me to that if I missed it. My guess is that the employee is NOT receiving full pay, but I could have overlooked it in the thread.

"This is a very interesting issue, whether children are a choice or our duty to the nation or an indulgence. A lot of female and male workers without children feel very resentful, always having to do the CHristmas cover, never being allowed to leave early because their own obligations are differently treated from a parent's. It's a hard issue. But people without children have no idea how hard work it is. I doubt we could ever convince them."

It's clearly a choice and an indulgence. A duty? Please. Don't pin the star on your lapel so soon. As I've already said, some of us do know how hard the work is. "Oh, but how could you know that?" The same way I know chemotherapy sucks and is wretched, but I haven't had to go through it to know that. Choice is choice, and if you made a choice that's a lot of work, that doesn't make you any more valuable to your employer unless your work benefited your employer.

"It's the childless who object to their taxes paying for education/services for children that wind me up personally -- although actually, I have no problem with that if they sign a waiver now to the effect that when they are old and need a hip replacement it will be carried out by an untrained former feral child armed with a random selection of implements and no knowledge of hygiene (and so forth for any other members of younger generations with whom they will be interacting)..."

OK. Will you sign a waiver that your child's education, daycare, medical care, and all other forms of care not personally carried out by you will be performed by the same untrained ferals? What you don't understand is that others are helping carry your child through society and life in their early years. Anything your kids contribute later is repaying the debt.

"The thing is, it IS completely different being a parent and a parent's needs are different imo from those of a non parent. If a child is ill then (sometimes) a parent needs to be there. It isn't something you can just not do because you can't be arsed. It isn't the same having to rush home because, oh, I don't know, your psyche needs some attention or something, it's a whole other defenceless person who needs you."

YOUR choice. Your CHOICE.

"I think this is outrageous! and a bloody cheek. If she wants 6 months off then fine, but she shouldn't get paid for it!

What did she think you did during your maternity leave? Sun yourself on a beach and drink Pimms? I'd like to leave her with a baby for a weekend and see if she finds that 'restful'. Mutter mutter. Huff."

Do I have to keep repeating the choice thing?

Oh, and bird lady? Go pluck yourself.

"Now pre-dcs I was never particularly "in tune" with the obligations that go with parenthood. But at the same time I think it is crazy and discriminatory to say that the child-free are entitled to a 6 month paid sabbatical while those who have children are given a lesser package.
What happens if they go on to have children - it's not as if they wouldn't THEN be entitled to maternity benefits. So no reason why you shouldn't be entitled to a 6 month paid sabbatical in the future."

First of all - once again, someone point me to the "lesser package"? Second of all, who says the parent wouldn't be entitled to the sabbatical? Did someone roll out the Jumping to Conclusions Mat, or did I miss something in the thread?

"That childfree ghetto or whatever that waste of space blog shite is called is a fucking disgrace. Especially that Jon Benet Ramsay bit

I bet the highlight of the week for the author of that nasty vitriol filled blog is to go home to his bedsit for a pot noodle and a wank"

I do love a pot noodle and a wank as much as the next person. Guilty as charged. I may have to change the name of this blog to WasteofSpaceBlogShite, too. I really like that. It's better than "Childfree Ghetto." Thanks, anon angry parent!

"I am completely confused. When you go on maternity pay, doesnt the' government pay almost all your salary for your employer? Whereas your boss is giving her the same option (for how long?) but paying all her salary himself, presumably? Employer must REALLY value her as a worker. "

Yeah, I guess so, huh?

"The government pays for maternity leave because birth rates are low and good quality early infant care makes a big difference to a child's future, thus the wellbeing of tomorrow's adults (and workers). The government does it to benefit society. What benefits does your workmate going on holiday confer to society??"

The same benefit as someone having a child. None. Children are drains on resources. Whether they're a necessary drain is obviously up for debate (I say they are not necessary and we could do without so many of them. Quelle surprise), but they ARE drains.

"You gave me a good laugh out of their spite, TGW. Pot Noodle and a wank, I like it! Can't get that image out of my head now......"

I can't get that out of my head either. Not the wank, as I don't need that at the moment, but I'd kill for a good bowl of pho.

"Those sites you say are "horrible" simply reflect the points of view of a lot of people who have chosen to be childfree and then feel burdened at work. It's hard to bridge that gulf between the child free who see you having children as a choice for you, an indulgence, a hobby which is given greater consideration than their own hobbies. I know people who have left a job when they were refused a sabbatical. If you really want to keep staff then you consider requests like that and sometimes it makes sense to consider them. Ask for your won sabbatical if you think they want to retain you and will bend over backwards to accommodate you."

That made some sense there. Thank you.

"I'm going to stick my neck out here. I do think, actually, that some workplaces expect people who don't have children to work all hours. I do also think that everyone should be entitled to a reasonable work/life balance, and if that means they're free to go home and watch the telly so be it."

and the crowd goes wild

"Hmmm.... But I'm expected to work as many hours as my childless colleagues (see previous thread - my getting locked in the building because I was here so late on Monday night!)"

Why should you be expected to work any less? Don't tell me, "Because I have a CHILD!" You knew what your job requirements were when you had the child. Did you expect everyone to bend over backwards to accommodate you? You have a child. Someone else has a boat. Choice, etc.

"She's probably just jealous and wishes she had children. It certainly annoys me too that the childless think being at home with children is like a day off. In fact a lot of us go to work for a rest in some ways."

Yeah, I'm positive she wishes she had children. She's no doubt crying her eyes out as she sails around Australia. If you go to work for a rest, why have children? You people make parenthood look more wretched, and the choice to do so more illogical, all the time.

"You wait, when she is old, she and her ilk will be the first to complain about their pension, why there aren't enough doctors, nurses, road sweepers, undertakers..."

You'll complain too, even though you have kids. You'll probably complain louder, because you have kids and think (as you do now) that entitles you to better treatment. Old people complain. It's what they do. If I've been on this earth for 80 years of bullshit, you better believe I'm going to complain. You can only suck it up and smile for so many decades.

"She is just a complete sad cow - just know that the wonderful thing that happened so you could have maternity leave and the pleasure your baby is going to give you can never be matched by anything that she will experience on her sabatical."

No. It can't be matched. Surpassed, perhaps. Seriously, that statement above was so funny I almost pissed myself. Never read Mumsnet on a full bladder.

"OK, you can have 6 weeks paid leave, minus what we WOULD receive back from the government if you WERE having a baby. Furthermore, you can have a further 12 weeks off on 70% pay, minus the government SMP; HOWEVER, I will need to rewrite your contract to say that if you do go on maternity leave, your first maternity leave will be on SMP only, and subsequent sabbatticals will reduce further Occupational Maternity Pay in the same manner. Then that way, the COMPANY isn't giving you anything that mothers don't get, so your rights within the company are equal. If you feel that that is still discrimantory, I suggest you take it up iwth your MP as I can't deal with government discrimination in not paying Statutory Sabbattical Pay."

I'm fine with the idea that sabbatical should be paid just like maternity pay. The idea that maternity pay should be paid less, should the sabbatical employee eventually take maternity leave, is silly bullshit. Then again, it could be applied in reverse to parents who took maternity leave and then want sabbatical, so maybe it makes sense. As long as the paid time off is applied equally no matter what the reason for the time off...and that's what the parents seem to object to.

"I agree with Motherinferior. Work/life balance should be for all of us, not just those who have children.
Our company introduced flexitime for all last year.
There is a gang of blokes who regularly leave early on Fridays for golf competitions, and another who have 2 hour lunches for football training."

You're cool and so is your company.

"I have never ever noticed in real life that women with children worked fewer hours or less hard than women without. Quite the contrary actually, as the women with kids spent a lot less time rocking in late with hangovers and taking long lunches. I was one of them, so I should know!"

I've known ONE woman who worked ridiculously hard while pregnant, took minimal leave, and jumped right back into it after coming back from leave. ONE. She did and does have my eternal respect. The others? Forget it. My personal experience, and that of many people I know (including those who wanted to have or went on to have children), is that the childless bear the extra burden and parents become snippy about bearing equal burden, never mind extra.

"But has the OP actually said her company equates the two? Ok that woman is being a bit silly (and when she's old and incontinent she deserves to be very lonely and have noone to wipe her bum) but unless the company views sabbaticals as instead of maternity leaves, and doesn't allow them to women who've had maternity leave, what's the problem?"

Well, that was almost sensible. Why do people with children not understand that they themselves may be lonely and have nobody but a bitter non-relative to wipe their bum? Having children does NOT equal eldercare! Hope springs eternal, I suppose, and I will hope with you that your children are different.

"Sabattical are a great thing to offer people. Parents need to ensure they use them to do something fun and not just childcare. I know parents who have managed that. Sometimes they take the children as a family round the world in a boat for a year or stuff like that or do a university course.

I think flexitime rights which are offered to all workers whether they have children or not are fair and nice. There is some validity in the stance of non parents who also want to care for elderly relatives or even because she wants to get off early to go to her flying lesson or whatever.

Basically as said below if the state entitlement to maternity rights is respected and then over and above that every worker gets anything extra like paid sabbatical etc regardless of what paternity or maternity leave they have had that's great. I suspect if every working parent in the place chose to take their sabbatical just after they'd had their maternity/paternity leave that may be a bit awkward for employers though so I'm sure it's wise to try to fit in a bit and realise the year you took the maternity leave may not be the best one to ask for even more time off."

Uh oh. There's more of that logical thinking sneaking in again.

With that, I close. I just can't take any more of this fun. It's like riding a rollercoaster until your eyes cross and you're ready to hurl.